I want to thank you for this excellent conversation and for allowing me to comment on it. I want to offer a perspective as a conservative that you may or may not have considered.
I really do care about people, as most conservatives do, and most people overall. Stories like Penni’s are a good reminder to me that actual trans people are not crazy and didn’t choose this and just want to live their lives, while at the same needing a little extra compassion, because ultimately, this is difficult to deal with. It makes me question the motivation of the activists who want to be sure that Penny, and Buck Angel, and Blaire White can’t be heard – these are people who can move the needle towards acceptance. People I would refer other conservatives to if they don’t already see that perspective.
The activists would rather keep me in the world of Matt Walsh, where I can be dismissed as a right-wing bigot, than listening to actual trans people and their loved ones who maintain the reality of biological sex. Penny, Buck, and Blaire are the real danger because people like my daughter might listen to her and conclude that “trans women are not women but that’s ok”. Matt Walsh isn’t going to change her mind, but Penny might. And this might be the real reason for the strategy. If the young people stay on board with this message, it doesn’t matter how many old fogeys don’t. I hope the young people grow out of it, but I lose hope for this every day.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea that someone would still consider herself female while calling herself a trans boy or man. Why not just live as a gender-nonconforming woman? Why adopt a new name and pronouns and undergo risky medical treatments? Sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive or unsympathetic; I just really don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe she can truly change her sex (and there are sadly a lot of people who *do* believe that) would put herself through the ordeal of transitioning rather than just being a very nontraditional woman.
Growing up in the 1960s, I never thought of myself as a girl, and puberty was extremely distressing for me. Luckily the diagnosis of gender dysphoria didn't yet exist, and transitioning wasn't an option. I was able to go through life defying stereotypes, and I eventually had a child of my own. It makes me sad now to see so many girls renouncing their sex just when women have finally (in the West anyway) achieved something approaching equality.
Sex is not a spectrum, but within each sex there are widely differing brains, hormone levels, and whatever else might make someone more or less feminine. We need that variety in the sexes to keep stereotypes from becoming entrenched. The regressive belief that you must be the opposite sex if you aren't feminine or masculine enough is setting equality back by decades.
While firmly maintaining that medical interventions for minors should be off-limits, it's important to note that individuals identifying as transgender don't seem to be causing harm to themselves or others. The crux of this matter is adopting a nuanced and well-rounded perspective, especially when it comes to the thorny subject of adolescent gender nonconformity. It's crucial that we move away from relying on stereotypes as the sole determining factor for identifying someone as "trans."
Additionally, there's a lingering concern regarding the potential link between autism and transgender identity. It's an area in which I hope more research will be conducted, as it's essential to clarify this relationship with as much accuracy and depth as possible. Let's encourage further studies to ensure a proper understanding of this complex issue.. See my video for a possible explanation between trans and autism/BPD.
Thank you both for a thoughtful conversation. I appreciate Penny Adrian's sharing her experiences and her perspective, and the ways in which she's navigated her role as parent of an adult child and as a community member. She mentions a couple times the neurological basis of being transgender. I'm wondering if folks can point me to more about this. I went down the path of asking about this a few years ago at UCSF and was offered this article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27070350/. It did not seem very conclusive and I wonder what other sources there are on this topic? Thanks
Thank you so much for conducting and sharing this interview. Penny Adrian is an incredibly intelligent and well-spoken messenger. What a treasure this interview is. Thank you!!
Thank you Penny and Lisa for this very interesting interview. Penny, I've seen your thoughtful comments in the various substacks that you and I subscribe to, and it was really nice to hear you speak about your experience.
It's kind of neat that I heard this interview the day after I wrote a comment on the Wednesday open thread saying something very similar: our North American society (I'm in Canada) is flattening difference in the name of tolerance, and is trying to eliminate discrimination and other forms of perceived bad behavior by changing language. I'm glad we agree.
I did want to comment on the neurological/physiological aspect of GD. I, personally, have no doubt that some people really do experience very stressful, even debilitating, discomfort in their bodies, specifically relating to secondary sexual characteristics. Maybe there's something neurological there, some difference in the brain or elsewhere that makes people feel this disconnect. There are, after all, people who feel like their limbs don't belong to them, and those people will almost always eventually try to cut the limb off. It is possible that the only treatment for these illnesses is surgery (or hormonal interventions). But the brain is such a complicated organ! And our consciousness is probably kind of unfathomable (those who say that our consciousness is somehow "produced" by our brain are really wrong, imho). The myriad of ways in which we perceive ourselves, our place in our society, our relationships with other humans, are just too complex for us to ever be able to say for sure that sex dysphoria is neurological. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: we will never be able to figure out what exactly makes a person deeply sex dysphoric.
What's my point, then? I guess if I think in terms of how to further constructive dialogue and societal acceptance of a variety of males and females, I'd like to avoid the "born this way" narrative. Practically speaking, it has not served society well. It maybe helped same-sex attracted people gain legal rights, but then it was promptly hijacked by the trans activists to explain why males should be allowed in women's rape shelters. And I'm sure that soon enough it will be used to explain trans-racialism and trans-ableism, and you name it. This approach takes away agency and presumes that a person who feels a certain way *must* act a certain way, and states that the rest of society *must* accommodate them.
I think I would rather have a world where adult people take their feelings into consideration when making choices about their lives, and where other people can choose to respect these choices or not to respect them. As long as there are laws in place to protect everyone from discrimination in workplaces, housing, legal issues, etc., I think we can safely abandon the "born this way" narrative.
I know folks here are aware of this, but, while I am hoping more will do so--and appreciate Penny’s insights about how much this is needed--I value enormously the transgender people who are already speaking up. One I particularly appreciate is Dr María Inés de la Cruz. (@Strobe_Lightly).
Certainly the most important thing parents must maintain is support of any child or young adult, including those who have fallen prey to gender ideology misinformation. however, theres very little evidence that parents arent supportive, despite often promoted false claims to the contrary. while maintaining support, parents shouldnt affirm a differnt gender identity. parents who affirm opposite gender ID of a child are often blamed for this disastrous choice when the child grows into adulthood. parents who retroactively claim they "didnt know what to do" and "i was only going by what experts told me" and "you were so sure you were trans" wont be off the hook. the individual harmed by gender biz misinformation will blame and does blame their parents most of all - it was these parents who ultimately allowed this harm, often resulting in permanant destruction of the parent child relationship after the child becomes an adult and finally has full grasp of the issues involved and how they were manipulated into exchanging their lifelong physical and mental health to address temporary child discomfort all people experience. its trickier if the affected individual is already an adult. but the same issues and effects still apply.
I want to thank you for this excellent conversation and for allowing me to comment on it. I want to offer a perspective as a conservative that you may or may not have considered.
I really do care about people, as most conservatives do, and most people overall. Stories like Penni’s are a good reminder to me that actual trans people are not crazy and didn’t choose this and just want to live their lives, while at the same needing a little extra compassion, because ultimately, this is difficult to deal with. It makes me question the motivation of the activists who want to be sure that Penny, and Buck Angel, and Blaire White can’t be heard – these are people who can move the needle towards acceptance. People I would refer other conservatives to if they don’t already see that perspective.
The activists would rather keep me in the world of Matt Walsh, where I can be dismissed as a right-wing bigot, than listening to actual trans people and their loved ones who maintain the reality of biological sex. Penny, Buck, and Blaire are the real danger because people like my daughter might listen to her and conclude that “trans women are not women but that’s ok”. Matt Walsh isn’t going to change her mind, but Penny might. And this might be the real reason for the strategy. If the young people stay on board with this message, it doesn’t matter how many old fogeys don’t. I hope the young people grow out of it, but I lose hope for this every day.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea that someone would still consider herself female while calling herself a trans boy or man. Why not just live as a gender-nonconforming woman? Why adopt a new name and pronouns and undergo risky medical treatments? Sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive or unsympathetic; I just really don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe she can truly change her sex (and there are sadly a lot of people who *do* believe that) would put herself through the ordeal of transitioning rather than just being a very nontraditional woman.
Growing up in the 1960s, I never thought of myself as a girl, and puberty was extremely distressing for me. Luckily the diagnosis of gender dysphoria didn't yet exist, and transitioning wasn't an option. I was able to go through life defying stereotypes, and I eventually had a child of my own. It makes me sad now to see so many girls renouncing their sex just when women have finally (in the West anyway) achieved something approaching equality.
Sex is not a spectrum, but within each sex there are widely differing brains, hormone levels, and whatever else might make someone more or less feminine. We need that variety in the sexes to keep stereotypes from becoming entrenched. The regressive belief that you must be the opposite sex if you aren't feminine or masculine enough is setting equality back by decades.
Penny Adrian: what a wonderful Mom you are. Respect.
While firmly maintaining that medical interventions for minors should be off-limits, it's important to note that individuals identifying as transgender don't seem to be causing harm to themselves or others. The crux of this matter is adopting a nuanced and well-rounded perspective, especially when it comes to the thorny subject of adolescent gender nonconformity. It's crucial that we move away from relying on stereotypes as the sole determining factor for identifying someone as "trans."
Additionally, there's a lingering concern regarding the potential link between autism and transgender identity. It's an area in which I hope more research will be conducted, as it's essential to clarify this relationship with as much accuracy and depth as possible. Let's encourage further studies to ensure a proper understanding of this complex issue.. See my video for a possible explanation between trans and autism/BPD.
https://youtu.be/ntZRG2j-5w4?t=2913
Thank you both for a thoughtful conversation. I appreciate Penny Adrian's sharing her experiences and her perspective, and the ways in which she's navigated her role as parent of an adult child and as a community member. She mentions a couple times the neurological basis of being transgender. I'm wondering if folks can point me to more about this. I went down the path of asking about this a few years ago at UCSF and was offered this article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27070350/. It did not seem very conclusive and I wonder what other sources there are on this topic? Thanks
Thank you so much for conducting and sharing this interview. Penny Adrian is an incredibly intelligent and well-spoken messenger. What a treasure this interview is. Thank you!!
Thank you Penny and Lisa for this very interesting interview. Penny, I've seen your thoughtful comments in the various substacks that you and I subscribe to, and it was really nice to hear you speak about your experience.
It's kind of neat that I heard this interview the day after I wrote a comment on the Wednesday open thread saying something very similar: our North American society (I'm in Canada) is flattening difference in the name of tolerance, and is trying to eliminate discrimination and other forms of perceived bad behavior by changing language. I'm glad we agree.
I did want to comment on the neurological/physiological aspect of GD. I, personally, have no doubt that some people really do experience very stressful, even debilitating, discomfort in their bodies, specifically relating to secondary sexual characteristics. Maybe there's something neurological there, some difference in the brain or elsewhere that makes people feel this disconnect. There are, after all, people who feel like their limbs don't belong to them, and those people will almost always eventually try to cut the limb off. It is possible that the only treatment for these illnesses is surgery (or hormonal interventions). But the brain is such a complicated organ! And our consciousness is probably kind of unfathomable (those who say that our consciousness is somehow "produced" by our brain are really wrong, imho). The myriad of ways in which we perceive ourselves, our place in our society, our relationships with other humans, are just too complex for us to ever be able to say for sure that sex dysphoria is neurological. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: we will never be able to figure out what exactly makes a person deeply sex dysphoric.
What's my point, then? I guess if I think in terms of how to further constructive dialogue and societal acceptance of a variety of males and females, I'd like to avoid the "born this way" narrative. Practically speaking, it has not served society well. It maybe helped same-sex attracted people gain legal rights, but then it was promptly hijacked by the trans activists to explain why males should be allowed in women's rape shelters. And I'm sure that soon enough it will be used to explain trans-racialism and trans-ableism, and you name it. This approach takes away agency and presumes that a person who feels a certain way *must* act a certain way, and states that the rest of society *must* accommodate them.
I think I would rather have a world where adult people take their feelings into consideration when making choices about their lives, and where other people can choose to respect these choices or not to respect them. As long as there are laws in place to protect everyone from discrimination in workplaces, housing, legal issues, etc., I think we can safely abandon the "born this way" narrative.
I know folks here are aware of this, but, while I am hoping more will do so--and appreciate Penny’s insights about how much this is needed--I value enormously the transgender people who are already speaking up. One I particularly appreciate is Dr María Inés de la Cruz. (@Strobe_Lightly).
This is a NYT's article written 35 yrs ago which succinctly and definitively sums up just how different men and women are. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/body-and-mind-the-aggressors.html?smid=em-share
Certainly the most important thing parents must maintain is support of any child or young adult, including those who have fallen prey to gender ideology misinformation. however, theres very little evidence that parents arent supportive, despite often promoted false claims to the contrary. while maintaining support, parents shouldnt affirm a differnt gender identity. parents who affirm opposite gender ID of a child are often blamed for this disastrous choice when the child grows into adulthood. parents who retroactively claim they "didnt know what to do" and "i was only going by what experts told me" and "you were so sure you were trans" wont be off the hook. the individual harmed by gender biz misinformation will blame and does blame their parents most of all - it was these parents who ultimately allowed this harm, often resulting in permanant destruction of the parent child relationship after the child becomes an adult and finally has full grasp of the issues involved and how they were manipulated into exchanging their lifelong physical and mental health to address temporary child discomfort all people experience. its trickier if the affected individual is already an adult. but the same issues and effects still apply.