This is key : “This should be a story about the ethical quandary of giving sex changes to people with severe mental health problems and unstable identities”.
My #1 goal is to stop medicalizing distressed young people your statement above is #2. And near the end of Affirmation Generation you spoke eloquently about one way we do that is hold space and support gender, and sexually diverse people. There is so much underneath all of this that needs to be understood
This is incredibly sad. Some of the first interviews I found when trying to understand what was going on with the sudden increase in teen trans identities were interviews with Shupe, both in their male and female identities. I knew basically nothing then, but I was struck even then by how deeply unhappy, unwell, self-destructive, and unstable Shupe was based on the stories Shupe told and their own self-analysis. One theme that came up in those interviews was that when Shupe was not on hormones, they were overwhelmed with AGP, destructive and dangerous sexual behaviors, and wanting to be a woman. When on estrogen, the intense sex drive was gone, but so was the desire to be a woman, and they would become unhappy, so it was a terrible catch 22. It seems like this is a perfect example of why scientists need to be allowed to research alternative treatments for gender dysphoria. Even without the struggles of someone like Shupe (and I doubt Shupe is an isolated case), not everyone can physically tolerate hormones and surgery. Isn’t it just cruel and inhumane to not allow the development of different treatment approaches?
Incredible! We have quite a Shakespearean cast of characters in that article, with no reference to the Benjamin Boyce/Shupe interviews from just over a year ago. I recommend reading the article, as a prime example of an anti-female screed, clearly influenced by the instructions on a webpage called Trans Journalists Association Style Guide. Shupe, with Boyce raptly listening, described the pain he put his wife through (sorry, I just have to stay with bio-pronouns) when he went out bar-hopping and cheated on her repeatedly, with both men and women. There is a daughter, (home with Mom, no doubt, during his escapades) but no mention of those two natal females, as usual, in the middle aged male version of his story of "transition." Shupe's gestures and language in the Boyce interviews indicated a mental health breakdown and demonstrated a highly manipulative mode. Boyce did not lead Shupe in the interview questions. The article references the "wrong" approach to treatment the first time he was on estrogen, but does not criticize the practitioners who do exactly the same, giving high doses of testosterone to teen girls. Shupe's case, including a chaotic childhood with alcoholic parents, openly described on Boyce's channel, as well as the referenced childhood sexual molestation, point to an important and common past in these men: abuse. Thank you Lisa, for your candor regarding personal mental health challenges and for writing about trans widows. A window into the extreme psychological cruelty experienced by us wives, who are often mothers of the children fathered by these guys, is demonstrated by the complete absence of Shupe's wife and daughter in this article. Why anyone would listen to Shupe's conjecture about detransitioner, and eloquent young spokeswoman, Chloe Cole, is beyond comprehension.
I've been researching this topic area for nearly three years. The people the author is attempting to crucify are fascinating people who are willing to accept personal risk in order to help others.
Very unreliable narrator authoring this piece. Inaccurate black /white thinking. It doesn't make sense. The idea that people are investigating this issue due to deep seated hatred makes no sense. It's not hatred or bigotry. What's to hate? It's genuine concern and a desire to seek truth.
"Gender affirming care" sounds so pleasant and I am sure the author believes that it's like a special prescription based on an enduring medical condition. I think we distance ourselves from the brutal facts with language like that. Up is down, front is back. You almost have to read it knowing that each fact is actually the opposite of what is stated.
Decided not to read the article - I am trying to stay away from pieces that are going to make me angry or despondent, and this one sounds like it would definitely make me very angry. Thank you, Lisa, for standing strong. I can't imagine what it must feel like to take a public stand like you did, be pilloried for it by all sorts of people on both sides, and not give up on it (and not swing one way or the other because it's too hard to keep a nuanced and compassionate view). I hope you know how much this means to all of us who share your concerns but may not have such a public voice.
Oh goodness: " staggering 73 percent"....no, and in fact seattle didn't bother to correct the record when they were caught out misrepresenting what they found.
Thank you for calling this out. And please I hope you are feeling better, your writing is wonderful and I"m sorry if it is taking a lot out of you!! Thank you!
Like so many other conflicts we are facing there seems to be little appetite for resolution, seeking common ground and people arguing in good faith. That means to me that there's a deeper conflict that we'll have to resolve first. Everything else is a proxy war meant to simmer forever. What is the underlying conflict? My hypothesis: A class struggle over values. Progressives not familiar with the issue reflexively take sides against their imagined MAGA boogiemen, while the right wants to weld the softheaded orthodoxies of queer theory to their tormentors in academia. It's only a hypothesis, of course. I despair of persuasion until we can find a workaround to virtue signaling as the primary objective of discourse.
I will take your advice and not read the article (so as, also, not to give it a click) at least for now, but thank you for giving us all a heads up and for all else you do--and for being such a decent, caring person with it all. So with you on this: “The truth is, a whole bunch of different kinds of people have now realized that articles like this promote untruths, and know that entire narratives of those getting hurt have been ignored. They feel drawn to try to make that right. That’s not an anti-trans conspiracy, it’s righting the ship which has gone frighteningly off course.”
I haven’t read the piece yet but I will. Just wanted to thank you for your honest work on this issue. I know how hard it is as I’ve had to take space for my own well-being.
Your work on this issue was one of the first I stumbled on and trusted because you shared that you have been on the left all your life, as have I, although in my state of California I have distanced myself due to how we are approaching gender in the schools and clinically.
This is key : “This should be a story about the ethical quandary of giving sex changes to people with severe mental health problems and unstable identities”.
My #1 goal is to stop medicalizing distressed young people your statement above is #2. And near the end of Affirmation Generation you spoke eloquently about one way we do that is hold space and support gender, and sexually diverse people. There is so much underneath all of this that needs to be understood
This is incredibly sad. Some of the first interviews I found when trying to understand what was going on with the sudden increase in teen trans identities were interviews with Shupe, both in their male and female identities. I knew basically nothing then, but I was struck even then by how deeply unhappy, unwell, self-destructive, and unstable Shupe was based on the stories Shupe told and their own self-analysis. One theme that came up in those interviews was that when Shupe was not on hormones, they were overwhelmed with AGP, destructive and dangerous sexual behaviors, and wanting to be a woman. When on estrogen, the intense sex drive was gone, but so was the desire to be a woman, and they would become unhappy, so it was a terrible catch 22. It seems like this is a perfect example of why scientists need to be allowed to research alternative treatments for gender dysphoria. Even without the struggles of someone like Shupe (and I doubt Shupe is an isolated case), not everyone can physically tolerate hormones and surgery. Isn’t it just cruel and inhumane to not allow the development of different treatment approaches?
Incredible! We have quite a Shakespearean cast of characters in that article, with no reference to the Benjamin Boyce/Shupe interviews from just over a year ago. I recommend reading the article, as a prime example of an anti-female screed, clearly influenced by the instructions on a webpage called Trans Journalists Association Style Guide. Shupe, with Boyce raptly listening, described the pain he put his wife through (sorry, I just have to stay with bio-pronouns) when he went out bar-hopping and cheated on her repeatedly, with both men and women. There is a daughter, (home with Mom, no doubt, during his escapades) but no mention of those two natal females, as usual, in the middle aged male version of his story of "transition." Shupe's gestures and language in the Boyce interviews indicated a mental health breakdown and demonstrated a highly manipulative mode. Boyce did not lead Shupe in the interview questions. The article references the "wrong" approach to treatment the first time he was on estrogen, but does not criticize the practitioners who do exactly the same, giving high doses of testosterone to teen girls. Shupe's case, including a chaotic childhood with alcoholic parents, openly described on Boyce's channel, as well as the referenced childhood sexual molestation, point to an important and common past in these men: abuse. Thank you Lisa, for your candor regarding personal mental health challenges and for writing about trans widows. A window into the extreme psychological cruelty experienced by us wives, who are often mothers of the children fathered by these guys, is demonstrated by the complete absence of Shupe's wife and daughter in this article. Why anyone would listen to Shupe's conjecture about detransitioner, and eloquent young spokeswoman, Chloe Cole, is beyond comprehension.
Thank you for being on team complexity, Lisa!
I've been researching this topic area for nearly three years. The people the author is attempting to crucify are fascinating people who are willing to accept personal risk in order to help others.
Very unreliable narrator authoring this piece. Inaccurate black /white thinking. It doesn't make sense. The idea that people are investigating this issue due to deep seated hatred makes no sense. It's not hatred or bigotry. What's to hate? It's genuine concern and a desire to seek truth.
"Gender affirming care" sounds so pleasant and I am sure the author believes that it's like a special prescription based on an enduring medical condition. I think we distance ourselves from the brutal facts with language like that. Up is down, front is back. You almost have to read it knowing that each fact is actually the opposite of what is stated.
For those who don't want to give clicks to the article, an archived version is here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230316173903/https://xtramagazine.com/power/detransition-terf-movement-elisa-shupe-247592
I don't think it contains the Herzog correction though.
Decided not to read the article - I am trying to stay away from pieces that are going to make me angry or despondent, and this one sounds like it would definitely make me very angry. Thank you, Lisa, for standing strong. I can't imagine what it must feel like to take a public stand like you did, be pilloried for it by all sorts of people on both sides, and not give up on it (and not swing one way or the other because it's too hard to keep a nuanced and compassionate view). I hope you know how much this means to all of us who share your concerns but may not have such a public voice.
Oh goodness: " staggering 73 percent"....no, and in fact seattle didn't bother to correct the record when they were caught out misrepresenting what they found.
https://mynorthwest.com/3602854/rantz-despite-concerning-trans-study-uw-kept-quiet-because-of-positive-coverage/
more info here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346
Thank you for calling this out. And please I hope you are feeling better, your writing is wonderful and I"m sorry if it is taking a lot out of you!! Thank you!
Like so many other conflicts we are facing there seems to be little appetite for resolution, seeking common ground and people arguing in good faith. That means to me that there's a deeper conflict that we'll have to resolve first. Everything else is a proxy war meant to simmer forever. What is the underlying conflict? My hypothesis: A class struggle over values. Progressives not familiar with the issue reflexively take sides against their imagined MAGA boogiemen, while the right wants to weld the softheaded orthodoxies of queer theory to their tormentors in academia. It's only a hypothesis, of course. I despair of persuasion until we can find a workaround to virtue signaling as the primary objective of discourse.
I will take your advice and not read the article (so as, also, not to give it a click) at least for now, but thank you for giving us all a heads up and for all else you do--and for being such a decent, caring person with it all. So with you on this: “The truth is, a whole bunch of different kinds of people have now realized that articles like this promote untruths, and know that entire narratives of those getting hurt have been ignored. They feel drawn to try to make that right. That’s not an anti-trans conspiracy, it’s righting the ship which has gone frighteningly off course.”
I haven’t read the piece yet but I will. Just wanted to thank you for your honest work on this issue. I know how hard it is as I’ve had to take space for my own well-being.
Your work on this issue was one of the first I stumbled on and trusted because you shared that you have been on the left all your life, as have I, although in my state of California I have distanced myself due to how we are approaching gender in the schools and clinically.
Sending continued strength and gratitude, Lisa.