Thank you for this profound discussion. Corinna's idea about marginalization is thought-provoking and persuasive; I believe there is something very true, and deeply heartbreaking, there. And the section on being a "good person" is painful and necessary - perhaps try substituting "good parent" as you listen.Then, take Corinna's encouragement at the end of the discussion to ask of others "what is really going on here?" I have been trying just that lately. It's therapeutic, it offers the opposite of crazy-making, and maybe those conversations will bring change in the new year.
Thank you so much, Lisa, for the introduction to Corinna and this thoughtful, illuminating conversation—an excellent way to close out 2022 and bring in 2023. If a transcript can be made available, I would welcome that, as there are aspects I know I will want to revisit from time to time. For one, I was really struck by what Corinna observed about the possibility that key drivers here are allies, rather than trans people (other than some trans activists), who are more likely to be gender-conforming and therefore may well have little to no understanding of the impact of gender ideology on, for example, a gender non-conforming child or a young lesbian trying to find an intimate partner. I am highly confident that this explains the reactions I get among certain friends if I try, even gently, to engage on this. As Lisa so pithily put it, the air changes in the room.
I also appreciated the discussion later on about the issue of trying to be good as a problematic goal. For one, the world is so full of problems, we all, I think, have to choose which we will take on directly. For the rest, we tend to rely on those individuals and institutions we have come to think of as reliable guides and do not do much independent thinking. When dealing with gender ideology, therefore, there is a double burden when trying to challenge that belief system; that is, not only must you deal one on one with a friend who is squirming with discomfort, but you are also implicitly asking that person not to trust the judgment of the individuals or institutions on which they have come rely for sound guidance. That is a very big ask, and as you both noted, while we may have truth on our side, we do not, at least if we are left of center, have institutional support of any type. It is good to see a few glimmers of light, and good to be reminded that even the smallest one on one conversations can add to that. Most of all, it is good to know that, right here at Broadview, we have a community that can give one another support. Thank you, Lisa, for all.
This was SO good I listened to it, in its entirety, twice. The second time I made notes so that I can direct people to the most important points -- but they add up to most of the hour, unsurprisingly! Corinna is a hero to me for speaking with careful, eloquent gravity from a perspective that is unimpeachable. (If you don’t already subscribe to Heterodorx, you should.) This was a great way to close out the year. Well done, Lisa.
What Suzanne said -- what a profound discussion, very wise and compassionate too. During your clear and honest discussion, it again became clear that this is part of a backlash against the gay and women's rights movements. The people who "support" trans people may not consciously realize what they're doing, but they're participating in a backlash, which in a way is an attempt to control and possibly harm the lives of gender nonconforming people, especially children. Amazingly most of this is coming from left-leaning people. Not surprising though, I'm left-leaning socially and politically and have seen this kind of backlash brewing for years on the left. It's a shame we as a society have come to this pass again! De ja vu all over again, right!? Lisa and Corinna, thank you so much for this, it's one of the best podcasts anyone could listen to, so I will definitely share.
Corinna: “Is it really trans people who are institutionalizing this? Or is it people who don’t identify as trans but want to be such good allies who want to institutionalize this? I think it is the latter. Certainly, there are trans activists who are involved in this. But I think that…what it mostly is…are people who want to be great allies and therefore what they are doing in practice is that they are gender-conforming individuals who are institutionalizing a path of medicalization for young people who are gender divergent. So what you have, actually in effect, is a system developed by people who are not and will never be trans to place people who are gender non-conforming people onto a medical leash that will lead to sterilization and put them into a completely separate social category biologically, so they will become permanent medical patients. When you think about that type of systemic process, that institutionalized process of deliberately creating a marginalized class of person—you’re trying to do it for good reasons, but actually you’re trying to identify and segregate people on the basis of what is normal and what isn’t—we [trans identified people] are being colonized. The people who aren’t trans are institutionalizing a system of medicalizing and segregating people who are gender non-conforming, many of whom would likely be gay or lesbian."
The existence of Corinna has helped me contemplate the probable outcomes of my daughter's recent decisions with a little less despair. If, despite all the damage and loss I fear she is inviting into her life as she further commits to the transgender delusion, she can gain half the wisdom, maturity, and greatness of mind that Corinna has achieved, I will be well pleased as a parent.
I very much appreciate the note on pronouns, that you do not approve of compelled speech. Here's a few seconds of my trans widow journey, demonstrating why I no longer use "she" for my ex-husband.
I cannot agree enough with Corinna. Some very powerful points that need to be heard by every single person willing to open their hearts and minds to such accurate detailed opinions. As the mother of a "trans" kid, I feel that my liberal opinion holds weight. When all is said and done, the bottom line still remains - these are adult decisions. I do not understand why any parent would make such a permanent decision for a child. I would like to know. Our children have no knowledge of what sex between two consenting adults feels like. To take away this beautiful act of love between two people, before they are able to experience it, is wrong. I feel as if we're all missing the point. This is a PERMANENT decision. Fact - this child will need medical support for the rest of their lives. Which brings me to my next question. If we had a poll on this subject, exactly how many parents have allowed this permanent surgery on their own child without questioning the facts. Without regard for their child wanting children someday. Without regard for perhaps having grandchildren of their own from them someday? Even you, Lisa. Would you validate your child's desire to have surgery at such a young age? Or would you advise they wait until their brain is done growing. Why are we not speaking out publicly on these facts? It just makes me so sad that any parent or professional would glorify surgery on a child that will destroy future plans when they do change their mind. And trust me, children change their minds all the time. Every parent in the world knows this. Therefore, it should not even be a subject brought up to a child. Children naturally accept one another. If they do point fingers, it is because it is a learned behavior that needs to be addressed. Not surgically removed. Seems we've reverted back to Bible days when people created eunuchs of people. To make sure they remain loyal to the king. We are making our children eunuchs to be loyal to who? The LGBT population? That still makes no sense. These are adult decisions for adult people. Stop brainwashing children. Let them make their own decision when they grow up. Tragic.
OK, here's a thought about bias: It's not a great way to walk a tightrope
Imagine that you must cross a bottomless pit by walking a tightrope. Would it be easier to have a cliff face and a handrail to hang onto as you walk across? Wouldn't you be even more likely to get across without losing your balance and falling if you had something to hang onto on BOTH sides of that tightrope?
We live our lives, making minute-by-minute decisions based on our own judgment of which choice we think will be "good" or "bad" for us . . . and we're influenced by our environment, which consists of the things we've read or witnessed, the people we listen to, our (often distorted) memories of past experiences. All humans will naturally shy away from re-exposing themselves to phenomena that we associate with pain; and that includes the experience of becoming aware of harsh realities. Some of us gain the ability to make ourselves resilient in the face of such pain. Some of us do not. In fact, most of us, to a greater or lesser degree, devote the lion's share of whatever talents and energy we have towards creating elaborate illusions to shield ourselves from facing up to the most unpleasant realities of being human, living out our short lives on a small planet circling a dying star in a cold universe. Some of these elaborate illusions are belief systems have evolved and persisted across hundreds of human generations, the most man-made of these are most often known as religions, but also including a large set of naturally physiological and psychological behavior patterns that usually govern how a human will typically interact with the material world (optical illusions, emotional instincts, logical fallacies, etc.).
The belief system that one must - or even can - change one of the most fundamental aspects of one's biology - one's natal sex - to better suit one's temperament and be happy - or merely to satisfy the preferences of other people with whom one currently wishes to spend most of one's time - is the most elaborate and fragile of the man-made illusions that human societies have come up with yet . . .
But this transgender belief system is fragile, because the only way to maintain one's balance on that particular tightrope is to limit oneself to grasping only one handrail, the "trans-affirming" one, and refusing to even touch the one on the other side, dismissing it as "transphobic and bigoted hate."
Not to raise hackles, but Jordan Peterson years ago was also floating that theory of "disagreeableness" being a big part of the temperament of individuals who are unwilling (unable, even) to go along with groupthink and belief systems that don't line up with all the evidence . . .
Thank you for this profound discussion. Corinna's idea about marginalization is thought-provoking and persuasive; I believe there is something very true, and deeply heartbreaking, there. And the section on being a "good person" is painful and necessary - perhaps try substituting "good parent" as you listen.Then, take Corinna's encouragement at the end of the discussion to ask of others "what is really going on here?" I have been trying just that lately. It's therapeutic, it offers the opposite of crazy-making, and maybe those conversations will bring change in the new year.
Thank you so much, Lisa, for the introduction to Corinna and this thoughtful, illuminating conversation—an excellent way to close out 2022 and bring in 2023. If a transcript can be made available, I would welcome that, as there are aspects I know I will want to revisit from time to time. For one, I was really struck by what Corinna observed about the possibility that key drivers here are allies, rather than trans people (other than some trans activists), who are more likely to be gender-conforming and therefore may well have little to no understanding of the impact of gender ideology on, for example, a gender non-conforming child or a young lesbian trying to find an intimate partner. I am highly confident that this explains the reactions I get among certain friends if I try, even gently, to engage on this. As Lisa so pithily put it, the air changes in the room.
I also appreciated the discussion later on about the issue of trying to be good as a problematic goal. For one, the world is so full of problems, we all, I think, have to choose which we will take on directly. For the rest, we tend to rely on those individuals and institutions we have come to think of as reliable guides and do not do much independent thinking. When dealing with gender ideology, therefore, there is a double burden when trying to challenge that belief system; that is, not only must you deal one on one with a friend who is squirming with discomfort, but you are also implicitly asking that person not to trust the judgment of the individuals or institutions on which they have come rely for sound guidance. That is a very big ask, and as you both noted, while we may have truth on our side, we do not, at least if we are left of center, have institutional support of any type. It is good to see a few glimmers of light, and good to be reminded that even the smallest one on one conversations can add to that. Most of all, it is good to know that, right here at Broadview, we have a community that can give one another support. Thank you, Lisa, for all.
This was SO good I listened to it, in its entirety, twice. The second time I made notes so that I can direct people to the most important points -- but they add up to most of the hour, unsurprisingly! Corinna is a hero to me for speaking with careful, eloquent gravity from a perspective that is unimpeachable. (If you don’t already subscribe to Heterodorx, you should.) This was a great way to close out the year. Well done, Lisa.
Those of us who are trans and heterodox need to band together and get our messages out there!
What Suzanne said -- what a profound discussion, very wise and compassionate too. During your clear and honest discussion, it again became clear that this is part of a backlash against the gay and women's rights movements. The people who "support" trans people may not consciously realize what they're doing, but they're participating in a backlash, which in a way is an attempt to control and possibly harm the lives of gender nonconforming people, especially children. Amazingly most of this is coming from left-leaning people. Not surprising though, I'm left-leaning socially and politically and have seen this kind of backlash brewing for years on the left. It's a shame we as a society have come to this pass again! De ja vu all over again, right!? Lisa and Corinna, thank you so much for this, it's one of the best podcasts anyone could listen to, so I will definitely share.
Corinna: “Is it really trans people who are institutionalizing this? Or is it people who don’t identify as trans but want to be such good allies who want to institutionalize this? I think it is the latter. Certainly, there are trans activists who are involved in this. But I think that…what it mostly is…are people who want to be great allies and therefore what they are doing in practice is that they are gender-conforming individuals who are institutionalizing a path of medicalization for young people who are gender divergent. So what you have, actually in effect, is a system developed by people who are not and will never be trans to place people who are gender non-conforming people onto a medical leash that will lead to sterilization and put them into a completely separate social category biologically, so they will become permanent medical patients. When you think about that type of systemic process, that institutionalized process of deliberately creating a marginalized class of person—you’re trying to do it for good reasons, but actually you’re trying to identify and segregate people on the basis of what is normal and what isn’t—we [trans identified people] are being colonized. The people who aren’t trans are institutionalizing a system of medicalizing and segregating people who are gender non-conforming, many of whom would likely be gay or lesbian."
The existence of Corinna has helped me contemplate the probable outcomes of my daughter's recent decisions with a little less despair. If, despite all the damage and loss I fear she is inviting into her life as she further commits to the transgender delusion, she can gain half the wisdom, maturity, and greatness of mind that Corinna has achieved, I will be well pleased as a parent.
I very much appreciate the note on pronouns, that you do not approve of compelled speech. Here's a few seconds of my trans widow journey, demonstrating why I no longer use "she" for my ex-husband.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6kfoI3yfbMk
I cannot agree enough with Corinna. Some very powerful points that need to be heard by every single person willing to open their hearts and minds to such accurate detailed opinions. As the mother of a "trans" kid, I feel that my liberal opinion holds weight. When all is said and done, the bottom line still remains - these are adult decisions. I do not understand why any parent would make such a permanent decision for a child. I would like to know. Our children have no knowledge of what sex between two consenting adults feels like. To take away this beautiful act of love between two people, before they are able to experience it, is wrong. I feel as if we're all missing the point. This is a PERMANENT decision. Fact - this child will need medical support for the rest of their lives. Which brings me to my next question. If we had a poll on this subject, exactly how many parents have allowed this permanent surgery on their own child without questioning the facts. Without regard for their child wanting children someday. Without regard for perhaps having grandchildren of their own from them someday? Even you, Lisa. Would you validate your child's desire to have surgery at such a young age? Or would you advise they wait until their brain is done growing. Why are we not speaking out publicly on these facts? It just makes me so sad that any parent or professional would glorify surgery on a child that will destroy future plans when they do change their mind. And trust me, children change their minds all the time. Every parent in the world knows this. Therefore, it should not even be a subject brought up to a child. Children naturally accept one another. If they do point fingers, it is because it is a learned behavior that needs to be addressed. Not surgically removed. Seems we've reverted back to Bible days when people created eunuchs of people. To make sure they remain loyal to the king. We are making our children eunuchs to be loyal to who? The LGBT population? That still makes no sense. These are adult decisions for adult people. Stop brainwashing children. Let them make their own decision when they grow up. Tragic.
OK, here's a thought about bias: It's not a great way to walk a tightrope
Imagine that you must cross a bottomless pit by walking a tightrope. Would it be easier to have a cliff face and a handrail to hang onto as you walk across? Wouldn't you be even more likely to get across without losing your balance and falling if you had something to hang onto on BOTH sides of that tightrope?
We live our lives, making minute-by-minute decisions based on our own judgment of which choice we think will be "good" or "bad" for us . . . and we're influenced by our environment, which consists of the things we've read or witnessed, the people we listen to, our (often distorted) memories of past experiences. All humans will naturally shy away from re-exposing themselves to phenomena that we associate with pain; and that includes the experience of becoming aware of harsh realities. Some of us gain the ability to make ourselves resilient in the face of such pain. Some of us do not. In fact, most of us, to a greater or lesser degree, devote the lion's share of whatever talents and energy we have towards creating elaborate illusions to shield ourselves from facing up to the most unpleasant realities of being human, living out our short lives on a small planet circling a dying star in a cold universe. Some of these elaborate illusions are belief systems have evolved and persisted across hundreds of human generations, the most man-made of these are most often known as religions, but also including a large set of naturally physiological and psychological behavior patterns that usually govern how a human will typically interact with the material world (optical illusions, emotional instincts, logical fallacies, etc.).
The belief system that one must - or even can - change one of the most fundamental aspects of one's biology - one's natal sex - to better suit one's temperament and be happy - or merely to satisfy the preferences of other people with whom one currently wishes to spend most of one's time - is the most elaborate and fragile of the man-made illusions that human societies have come up with yet . . .
But this transgender belief system is fragile, because the only way to maintain one's balance on that particular tightrope is to limit oneself to grasping only one handrail, the "trans-affirming" one, and refusing to even touch the one on the other side, dismissing it as "transphobic and bigoted hate."
This is without any doubt the very best conversation/interview I have ever listened to on this subject. Thank you so much Lisa and Corinna!
Not to raise hackles, but Jordan Peterson years ago was also floating that theory of "disagreeableness" being a big part of the temperament of individuals who are unwilling (unable, even) to go along with groupthink and belief systems that don't line up with all the evidence . . .